Cyberverse - are the toys getting too simple or are people getting dumber?

[GoktimusPrime]

Commentary like this does absolutely nothing to define the Line's success or failure. It's a throw away line that rears it's head ever so often in the fandom. I can't speak for Hasbro but I'm pretty sure they set themselves targets for success: Net sales value, profit, distribution, brand invigoration, etc. It would not involve putting this Line on a pedestal.

That can also depend on what proportion of the line these toys occupy. The current/new stuff we have on shelves atm are:
* Power of the Primes
* Studio Series
* Cyberverse
And later this year we'll also have the Bumblebee movie toys.

So yeah, Cyberverse are occupying approximately a third of the toyline, and by year's end it will be roughly a quarter. This isn't nearly as bad as what happened in 1990 where the horrible compromised toys occupied half of the toyline. And we know that that was the beginning of the end for G1.

Another thing to consider is brand momentum. Another reason why Action Masters helped to kill off G1 is because Transformers had already been losing momentum since 1987. It was already a shrinking brand by the time Action Masters came along and kicked the brand in the janglies. Now compare this with say Beast Machines and Animorphs which followed the highly successful Beast Wars. As widely disliked as those toys were, they still didn't kill off Transformers because the fandom was still riding off the coattails of Beast Wars' popularity. From Beast Wars Transformers had fallen from a high into a low, but then recovered by the time Car Robot/RiD came along. There was another dip in 2002, but again the momentum was still there, and it recovered again in 2003 with Armada - enough momentum that Hasbro was convinced to go ahead with the idea of a live action film for Transformers.

The problem with Action Masters was that it took Transformers from an already low point - the cartoon had already been cancelled and the fandom was already weakened - to a much lower point. The brand can take "hits" if it's coming from a position of relative strength. And yeah, the brand at the moment is incredibly strong, so I would not at all expect Cyberverse to really put much of a dent in it.

So I'm not at all crying "RUINED FOREVER" with these toys and saying that these figures will spell the end for Transformers. We've all seen Transformers survive through much, much worse than this (like Action Masters). We remember what it was like being a Transformers collector through way tougher times (like the mid 1990s). These toys aren't concerning me from a POV of it ruining the franchise... but they're still inexcusably poor toys. And shelfwarmers hurt the brand. Probably not enough to ruin it, but it's not doing it any favours either.

And yeah, "throw away line" pretty much encapsulates the inherently flawed philosophy behind these toys.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Been interesting to read everyone's responses to this topic. By now so there are so many points others have made that I want to respond too it would take too long to quote/coy/paste/edit each one so I'll just chuck in some general comments on the latest discussions

RID vs RB vs Cyberverse

RB vs Cyberverse
*Frankly Rescue Bots were awesome! They came out at a time where both myself and lots of close friends had very little boys at home and they were perfect to introduce them to Transformer toys. As others have noted, they are strongly built, very hardy (except for bloody Quickshadow - what an awful toy!) and a lot of fun for younger kids, especially when you add all the extras like bases and Mini-Con animals that became tools for the bigger bots. Add into that a cartoon with no Decepticons so kids got to see Autobots act as recusing heroes instead of warriors and it's proven a highly successful endeavor.

*I don't think it's massively fair to say 'well Rescue Bots were simplistic so whats peoples problem with Cyberverse' as they are aimed at different nieches. Indeed there is a RB spinoff cartoon coming up so we know that Cyberverse wont be aimed at the really younger kids. And besides, at least a lot of the RB toys looked good, the likes of Brushfire has a lot more visual appeal in both modes than the new Warrior Starscream.

RID vs Cyberverse
*The reason RID doesn't seem to cop a ton of flak is that most people tuned out to it ages ago. The cartoon has been fairly lackluster and has not generated the kind of loyal following that Animated and Prime did before. People just don't pay attention
*The toys have not been the most horrible ever made but certainly not the best. For kids around the 5+ mark they aren't too bad, though not complicated enough to entrance the older kids and certainly not adults. The combiner groups later on were particularly poorly done.
*RID tried to bridge the gap between the movieverse-style of Prime and the old G1 aesthetic. So while it was the same universe as Prime you now had:

-Talking Bumblebee
-Talking Grimlock
-Sideswipe: Red sports car
-Optimus: Big trailer on his truck mode
-Ratchet nearly all white with a windscreen chest
-Starscream in G1 colours
-Toys of Bludgeon, Skywarp, Cyclonus, Ratbat etc all with a G1'ish asthetic
-Motormaster leading the Stunticons and combining into Menasor

Add into that trying to introduce a ton of new semi-animal themed Cons and the cartoon and toyline tried to do too much and never really shined at any of it. It will most likely be a cartoon and toyline that will disappear and people will say 'Oh yeah, yeah it was ok I guess'.

*It remains to be seen what the Cyberverse cartoon will be like in comparison to the RID cartoon. They are certainly pushing the G1 theme a lot more than RID did, and maybe that will be more successful as a theme than one you cant pin down. Depends how good the characterization in the cartoon is done, hope its a lot better than the function descriptions on the toys.
*But if the RID toys were a bit too dumbed down for a lot of fans, the Cyberverse toys look like they are definitely too dumbed down for almost all the fans. The more images that come out of the toys online the more people seem to think they suck, and that includes kids! Like many have said, kids don't like being talked down too, and given the price tags for these lackluster toys there are so many better things a kid could get in a toy store for that much cash. As for the adult collectors, I reckon mmany will save their bucks and skip the line altogether.

KIDS LIKE HIGHER QUALITY TOYS BETTER!

Example: Titans Return Twinferno vs RID Twinferno

Packaging says RID is for 6+ and TR is for 8+

I have both and I'm not going to give my perspective - I'm going to give it from a pair of 5 & 6 year old boys.

My son picked the RID version to give to his mate for his mates 6th birthday several months ago. At the Big W Toysale he picked a TR version for himself. His mate came over the other week and brought his TF's to play with my son and his.

RID Twinferno hardly got a look in because they both thought that the TR version looked cooler in both modes, and with better articulation, a Titan Master, a couple of rifles etc was more fun to play with. As a result this toy, that is apparently aimed at kids older than them, was one they both figured out how to transform without assistance.

Kids don't need to be talked down to by the manufacturer. They need to have their sensibilities appealed to. And higher quality toys always have a better shot at that.

[GoktimusPrime]

Well said, Trev. Agree 100%.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Well said, Trev. Agree 100%.

Cheers mate I thought the Twinferno example particularly apt, mainly because of what I witnessed but also because it's a character neither boy had seen in a cartoon or movie, so both lads were judging the toys based on their appeal and playability, rather than how much they liked an onscreen character


I reckon Galvatran has a point about they probably did do market research before producing the Cyberverse line. But given that that research was probably based in America and done with families who had the time to do it, that doesn't bode great. The US ranks around the middle internationally for Science and Literacy and below average for Mathematics. Given they probably didn't do market research with the cream-of-the-crop, they may have undershot what kids of certain ages expected of toys when considered on an international level. A 5 year old Aussie kid (who averages significantly higher in the three mentioned academic areas - Google it folks!) might expect more complexity and quality than his US equivalent. That's purely speculation on my part of course and I could very well be completely wrong.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm sure that Hasbro play tests all of their toys. I suppose one potential problem with focus test groups is that it's always going to be a fairly limited sample of people that you're testing it on. While I'm sure it works most of the time, there may be times where the group tests different from how the overall market responds. It sometimes happens for other products like say movies.

e.g. the test audience for Apocalypse Now performed really poorly with the test audience who rated the film as "boring."

Or heck, how many times have you come up with what you thought was a really good lesson plan and then it worked really brilliantly with one class... but then totally bombed with your other classes (or vice versa)?

[Ralph Wiggum]

The problem is that Hasbro can’t please everyone, and for this line at least they’re going for the casual mass market who have limited knowledge on what a quality Transformer is. Just the other day I was visiting my niece (5yrs) and nephew (3yrs) and to my pleasant surprise they were watching Rescuebots. I can bet that their parents have different views to myself on what to look for in a quality Transformer and will pay whatever price is on the shelf.

[GoktimusPrime]

RE: Cyberverse cartoon clip reveal

This doesn't instill me with confidence and much like the toyline seems to be taking a step backwards for the target audience. The tone of the clip feels condescending to me - and as Trev pointed out well, the toys themselves are pretty condescending to kids as they are. The mecha designs, the animation and the way that they've made Bumblebee into an intellectually impaired semi-mute just feels condescending. Bumblebee having memory loss I can accept. Not sure why he can't talk again, but again, fine... TF Prime Soundwave was a mute but he evoked an incredibly powerful presence (and was often more potent because he didn't speak). And this is the same target audience that Transformers Prime and Transformers Robots In Disguise were targeting. Granted I felt that the tone of RiD was a notable step down from Prime, and this again is a continuing step down from RiD. But why is the show going backwards instead of forwards?

If we reflect back to our own childhoods in the 1980s, one thing that made Transformers stand out from say the Challenge of the Go-Bots was the different tones between the shows.

The Animation

The animation in Cyberverse looks like a modern update of the Hanna-Barbera style animation from Challenge of the Go-Bots, whereas the animation in Transformers Prime felt more like an update of G1 (and indeed Prime was the 2nd TF series to win an Emmy Award for its animation (the 1st being Beast Wars)). Sure, Prime's design aesthetics was a blend between "Cartoon Network" and Bayformers, but as far as the animation (not design) quality was concern, it was really top notch. I'd say Prime was the best animated Transformers series ever. Both Prime and RiD were animated by the Tokyo-based Polygon studios which has done animation work for a lot of anime, including Ghost In The Shell Innocence etc. Though I'd say RiD had a notably lower budget than Prime. I wonder if Cyberverse is still being animated in Japan or if Hasbro's doing it all in-house now. If it is being done in Japan then it must be done on a shoestring budget to produce what looks more to me like Flash animation. :/

Consider Bumblebee

RiD's not my favourite thing, but one thing that I did really, really like about it was how they tried to develop the character of Bumblebee. At the end of TF Prime Bumblebee regained his voice and had a sudden personality change into being a more mature character (kinda dumb for a Cosmic MacGuffin to change a character's personality, but G1 did the same thing with Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ). In Prime's absence Bumblebee took command and in TF RiD we see Bumblebee step up again as Autobot leader. Even when Prime returned he didn't usurp Bumblebee and resume his role as leader. This was important and I'm glad that they didn't just return Optimus Prime to the status quo. I quite liked how RiD was not an "Optimus vs Megatron" show.

Forwards not backwards

The show needs to go forwards, not backwards. This was one thing that G1 did that many other 80s cartoons didn't (e.g. Challenge of the Go-Bots etc.). Because this is what the G1 cartoon basically gave us as kids:
* Season 1: Basic narrative of a limited cast of warring robots stationed on Earth.
* Season 2: Stories become more complex. The cast expands and some episodes explore various themes - e.g. The Gold Lagoon presents a powerful environmental message, and The God Gambit explores the effects between religious exploitation and society etc.
* Season 3: The story is no longer predominantly set on Earth. It is the future of 12 years ago and humanity has joined the Cybertronians in being a member of an intergalactic federation. The Decepticons are no longer the sole recurring threat to our heroes as they are forced to reconcile with the very origins of their species.
* Season 4: War and peace.

And we did see the current Aligned series take similar steps.
* Prime Season 1: The Autobots fight a covert war with the Decepticons on Earth. Dark Energon is a recurring theme which reveals the season finale that Earth is actually Unicron.
* Prime Season 2: The Earth had been seeded with ancient Cybertronian artifacts in the distant past. A quest ensues on both sides to acquire these artefacts, especially the Omega Keys which the Decepticons use in an attempt to Cyberform Earth.
* Prime Season 3: More dark secrets from the Cybertronians' past come back to haunt them with the rise of the Predacons. The war ends, Cybertron is restored and the Decepticon faction is disbanded.
* RiD Season 1: Bumblebee leads a small team of Autobots on Earth to recapture escaped Decepticon convicts. The story culminates in the arrival of The Fallen who had been manipulating members of the Earth-bound Decepticon Remnant.
* RiD Season 2: A Decepticon Remnant Coalition work towards establishing an Earth-based sanctuary. They are ultimately defeated and their slaves are emancipated.
* RiD Season 3: New threats emerge from the shadows as the Stunticons arrive forming their own gang, and Soundwave works to return from the Shadowzone. On Cybertron, a group of Decepticons disguised as Autobots have infiltrated Autobot command and have wrested control of Cybertron from the inside. Hail Hydra.

And note: all of these shows were aimed at kids. EVERY Transformers TV series has been aimed at kids. The difference is that good shows don't talk down to kids. Car Robot was very much aimed at a very young audience and there were many very silly moments but it wasn't condescending in tone (Beast Wars II on the other hand...).

Now granted we've only seen a short clip and maybe Cyberverse may surprise us yet when the show actually airs. I hope that my misgivings about the show do prove to be unwarranted. But the best way for a show to silence its critics is just by producing good, quality stories. This is what Beast Wars did. That show came along amidst a LOT of fan protest and outcry ("Trukk Not Munky!"), but it soon silenced its critics just being being really, really good! I dare Cyberverse to do the same.

Impress me.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Consider Bumblebee

RiD's not my favourite thing, but one thing that I did really, really like about it was how they tried to develop the character of Bumblebee. At the end of TF Prime Bumblebee regained his voice and had a sudden personality change into being a more mature character (kinda dumb for a Cosmic MacGuffin to change a character's personality, but G1 did the same thing with Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ). In Prime's absence Bumblebee took command and in TF RiD we see Bumblebee step up again as Autobot leader. Even when Prime returned he didn't usurp Bumblebee and resume his role as leader. This was important and I'm glad that they didn't just return Optimus Prime to the status quo. I quite liked how RiD was not an "Optimus vs Megatron" show.

I think we will find that this version of Bee is supposed to correlate somewhat with the Movie one coming out later in the year. Hence why he is talking through the radio again. I would not be surprised to find that Movie Bbee has amnesia too and they have inadvertently revealed a plot point

[GoktimusPrime]

When TF Prime was being developed, Ironhide was going to be a member of the Earth bound Autobots. But upon discovering that he would be killed by Sentinel Prime in Dark of the Moon, the writers decided to replace him with Bulkhead to help establish to kids that this was not the same continuity. But the Prime Ironhide design was made and the toy was later released (and repainted as Kup).

[BigTransformerTrev]

I think we will find that this version of Bee is supposed to correlate somewhat with the Movie one coming out later in the year. Hence why he is talking through the radio again. I would not be surprised to find that Movie Bbee has amnesia too and they have inadvertently revealed a plot point

When TF Prime was being developed, Ironhide was going to be a member of the Earth bound Autobots. But upon discovering that he would be killed by Sentinel Prime in Dark of the Moon, the writers decided to replace him with Bulkhead to help establish to kids that this was not the same continuity. But the Prime Ironhide design was made and the toy was later released (and repainted as Kup).

I'm not suggesting the same continuity. Unless Windblade and Thundercracker somehow show up in the flick and Blitzwing shows up in the cartoon there is no chance of that.

What I am saying is they are trying to make the movie Bbee and the new cartoon Bbee at least similar. Movie Bbee will be talking through the radio so now they are making cartoon Bbee once again talk through the radio, so it's all a bit less confusing for younger viewers as that's what Bbee does (apparently ). I can't think of any other reason that he would lose his ability to talk after RID. It's like when Prime came out - it wasn't ever mean to be the movie continuity but since there were movies in cinemas where Bbee couldn't talk, they made the cartoon version of him do the same.

It is of course pure speculation on my part that the fact that the new cartoon Bbee has amnesia might also mean that Movieverse Bbee has amnesia, but I do think it's a possibility and one we may see play out in December. Will just have to wait and see for that one.

Extra Thought: This also could be why Windblade is aking Bbee if he knows where the Allspark is. Since the upcoming movie is a prequel, it stands to reason they haven't found the Allspark yet. So once again, not the same continuity, but similar themes spread across both the new cartoon and new flick, especially since both are aimed at audiences younger than they usually are so will be viewed by a lot of kids new to the franchise.