Questions that need Answering

[Verno]

His comment of "They'll come, they always come..." would suggest otherwise, Gok. To me that says he's had a previous run in with them in which they arrived and wiped the floor clear of anything and everything. An encounter per-BW.

[Verno]

Oh, and here's a little something from the Beast Wars Sourcebook in regards to Optimus Primal:

Originally just one of dozens of starship captains in the Maximal fleet, Optimus Primal's true calling was destined to be far more significant than merely trawling deep space exploration lanes. ... Thrust into the role of a military leader, he proved time and time again that he was an effective warrior who also possessed great compassion, loyalty, honor and even a wry sense of humor.

- page 3, BW Sourcebook 3.

So there you have it: In the CGI show, Primal was just an exploration ship Captain and NOT the Matrix-wielding, Convoy Council sitting, Cybertronian hero that the Japanese movie portrayed him to be. Whoever the Optimus Primal was in the Japanese movie, he is a different Optimus Primal from a separate continuity. The Japanese creators may have set out to try and link it to the CGi show, but they didn't, they created their own continuity.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Oh, and here's a little something from the Beast Wars Sourcebook in regards to Optimus Primal:

- page 3, BW Sourcebook 3.

So there you have it: In the CGI show, Primal was just an exploration ship Captain and NOT the Matrix-wielding, Convoy Council sitting, Cybertronian hero that the Japanese movie portrayed him to be. Whoever the Optimus Primal was in the Japanese movie, he is a different Optimus Primal from a separate continuity. The Japanese creators may have set out to try and link it to the CGi show, but they didn't, they created their own continuity.

Dude, you can't win this one. HasTak are corporate whor...companies of negotiable storyline integrity. I admire your passion my friend, but the official storylines are HasTak's baby/ies and they can and do rewrite them as they see fit - that's why they're usually clumsy Retcons.
Just don't worry about the official stuff and try to make the Vernoverse as awesome and well-suited to what you want as you can. Take the bits you like and ignore what you don't - they're your toys and you can give them whatever backstory you like.

For example, in the Odieverse the origins of Tarantulas and the TriPredacus Council lie with the Insecticons (hence why destroying the Ark wouldn't have destroyed them, and also explaining Tarantulas' penchant for eating other mechanoids), with their mistaken belief of being descendants of Unicron being a mistake caused by their thinking they were the descendents of the Sweeps. Unfortunately for them they only find this out after they've awoken their 'ancestor', who informs them of their true origins as he's draining their Spark energy to revive his Spark and create a new, smaller body (United Unicron) from the remains of his old head.
Not Canon, but it works and makes more sense than most of the official continuities out there, especially when coupled with the rest of the Odieverse fanon.

[GoktimusPrime]

Oh, and here's a little something from the Beast Wars Sourcebook in regards to Optimus Primal:

- page 3, BW Sourcebook 3.

So there you have it: In the CGI show, Primal was just an exploration ship Captain and NOT the Matrix-wielding, Convoy Council sitting, Cybertronian hero that the Japanese movie portrayed him to be. Whoever the Optimus Primal was in the Japanese movie, he is a different Optimus Primal from a separate continuity. The Japanese creators may have set out to try and link it to the CGi show, but they didn't, they created their own continuity.

1. Note that nothing in that Sourcebook quote explicitly states that Optimus Primal does not possess a Matrix.

2. The BW Sourcebook contains a variety of continuity discrepancies that conflict with other BW canonical sources; thus probably isn't the best source of BW canonical reference material outside of the IDWverse BW continuity (reference)

3. Lio Convoy and Big Convoy never sat on the Convoy Council, yet they both possessed Matrices anyway.

At best you'd be looking at arguably separate continuity streams (as I mentioned before).

[Verno]

From TFWiki:

The Energon Matrix (エネルゴンマトリクス Enerugon Matorikusu) is a powerful device awarded only to high-ranking members of the Autobot or Maximal army, most often of Convoy rank.

Optimus Primal is just an exploration ship captain, one of many. He is not a high ranking member of the army.

I am drawing on several sources to paint a picture of the CGI universe Optimus Primal, and that picture simply has no matrix in it whatsoever.

I didn't say that Lio or Big Convoy sat on the Convoy Council, but the Japanese media explicitly states that Primal does. That is a different Optimus from a different and separate continuity.

And just because the Sourcebook contradicts other stuff doesn't make it any less official or any less canonical. Now who's picking and choosing to fit their argument?!

They are clearly different continuities, and different characters.

I hear you Grasshopper, but I couldn't not share that little tidbit I came across.

[theheretic]

I think it would be best if we pretended beast wars never happened :-P

[GoktimusPrime]

From TFWiki:

The Energon Matrix (エネルゴンマトリクス Enerugon Matorikusu) is a powerful device awarded only to high-ranking members of the Autobot or Maximal army, most often of Convoy rank.

Optimus Primal is just an exploration ship captain, one of many. He is not a high ranking member of the army.

Remember that TFwiki itself isn't a canonical source of information - it's a fan-run wiki that shamelessly presents information with bias. I cannot think of any actual canonical source that backs that claim from TFwiki. As for "Convoy" rank, Optimus Primal holds a "Convoy" rank since he was actually called "Convoy" in the Japanese dub of Beast Wars anyway.

I am drawing on several sources to paint a picture of the CGI universe Optimus Primal, and that picture simply has no matrix in it whatsoever.

Nor does it state that he doesn't. You need to present direct canonical evidence that explicitly and directly contradicts Optimus Primal's possession of a Matrix in order to conclusively dispute or disprove its existence. Simply stating, "But these other sources don't mention it" alone isn't enough. After all, NO G1 source before Beast Wars ever mentioned the term "Spark." G1 dropped hints at Transformers possessing a kind of life energy, known as "life essence" or "Primal essence" in the G1 comics and never explicitly named in the G1 cartoon (which was inconsistent about the nature of TF life anyway). It was only when Beast Wars came along that a Transformer's "soul" was explicitly defined as being a Spark; and thus it became a retconned term for all Transformers life energies across the TF multiverse.

I didn't say that Lio or Big Convoy sat on the Convoy Council, but the Japanese media explicitly states that Primal does. That is a different Optimus from a different and separate continuity.

Really? Could you please cite exactly which episode(s) showed Optimus Primal sitting on the Convoy Council? Because I really don't remember Optimus Primal ever appearing on the Convoy Council at all. (o_O) The Convoy Council was headed by Great Convoy, who commanded the Maximal Fleet in their counter-offensive against Unicron and was summarily killed along with the rest of the Fleet (and possibly other Convoy Councillors were killed too).

And just because the Sourcebook contradicts other stuff doesn't make it any less official or any less canonical.

I never said that.

Now who's picking and choosing to fit their argument?!

I never said that either.

They are clearly different continuities, and different characters.

Re-read my previous comments about multiple continuity streams. Thank you.

[Verno]

Beast Wars II manga

Many years ago, before Lio Convoy became "Lio Convoy", Optimus Primal was a sitting member of the Convoy Council and personally awarded him his Energon Matrix and Convoy rank.

Biast as TFWiki may be, it uses canonical information and is as close to a TF encyclopedia as we are ever likely to see. It gives a point in the right direction, if not being 100% accurate, but I hold a lot of stead in it.

[GoktimusPrime]

I highly recommend that you just cut the middle man and go directly to the original sources yourself. Relying solely on TFwiki simply won't do justice to the level of depth of the answers that you seek. It's kinda like trying to understand a book or movie by only reading summaries printed on the back of the book or DVD/Blu Ray case... nothing really quite beats actually reading and watching the original sources for yourself.

That way you'll have all the information you need and it will be first hand, not second hand (which is never as reliable as obtaining it first hand). You won't need to worry about the personal opinions of anyone else "diluting" the information. I feel that it would be in your own best interest to go and read/watch the source materials yourself if you truly want an in-depth understanding of Transformers lore presented to you without third party bias.

[Verno]

Nah, I'd rather draw on the vast knowledge of my fellow TransFans for my own ends I do appreciate it, Gok, even if we do clash heads.